The official Sebastian Junger community
So tired of this glamorization
Sebastian, Just listened to your interview on KUOW. Through this experience, did you find yourself thinking about how many other causes would be better served with the money being wasted every day on "piss-tubes" and bullets in this pseudo-macho, testosterone-fueled farce you label as "war"?
It's disheartening to see someone as intelligent and creative as you choose to glamorize this manufactured conflict. It seems to me like it's being carried out by so-called "soldiers" who have no hope in life and are thus coerced into aggression and shooting guns because they don't know any other way to function and cope in society. You would think that, as people, we would have evolved beyond this barbaric behavior at this point. Nevertheless, at your screening tonight, I'm sure you'll get a lot of cheers. Will those be very comforting to you? I would consider it quite sad. Maybe you could donate your book/film revenue to our federal deficit or to Afghani children whose parents were killed due to these war games?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Heath Roberts on -
"it's being carried out by so-called "soldiers" who have no hope in life and are thus coerced into aggression and shooting guns because they don't know any other way to function and cope in society."
That is a very interesting comment. I'm sure you personally know some of the Sky Soldiers to make that kind of a judgment. My little brother is 2-503 CHOSEN and he wasn't "coerced" into the military nor did he join out of necessity. Believe it or not, some people feel that they should serve the country they believe in (I doubt you would know anything about that). Since it's about to be Memorial Day maybe you should put down your Micheal Moore rhetoric and thank one of the men that "don't know any other way to function and cope in society" for the freedom to speak ill of others that you don't know. The part of your comment that I like the most is "Afghani children whose parents were killed due to these war games". It's funny that you say that because when my brother was back on R&R a few weeks ago we didn't talk about "war games". He talked about the children.
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Permalink Reply by Vance Pace on -
I am always amazed at what passes for "intelligent" thought both in person, and especially on the Internet, usually spouted by someone who really has no idea of what they are talking about.
It seems to me like it's being carried out by so-called "soldiers" - so called soldiers?? Does that mean you think you are a real soldier? I suspect you know even less about being a real soldier then you do our military, the men and women who serve in it, and what they go through, or anything else you've commented on!
who have no hope in life and are thus coerced into aggression and shooting guns because they don't know any other way to function and cope in society???? Do you actually know any of the men who make this sacrifice? Let me assure you that my son who is in 2nd Platoon Battle Company as I write this, was not coerced (I frankly would have prefered he choose a different path, but couldn't be prouder of the one he did pick) he had multiple choices of college, a different service, and many different jobs in the Army before he volunteered for 11Bravo, and also for Airborne school. He has never been in trouble not once in his life, and was both an fine athelete and a good student in school.
Regarding if Sebastian is glamorizing, one has to wonder if you have even read the book, I have (twice) and can't see how anyone (without an agenda) could come to the conclusion that the he was "Glamorizing" war.
One last thing, this is by no means a game, I'm pretty sure the only one playing a game here is you and it is a terribly naive game.
Please let us all know when you have discovered that fairy land you seem to think there is,where no military or war is required, but make sure that people like the Taliban don't find it, they are nearly so highly evolved as you.
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Permalink Reply by mouse on -
To Heath, John, and Vance,
Your additions to this thread reminded of a point I'd thought of making earlier, but then I realized how little this Eric person was actually here to contribute, so I didn't bother. I'll make my point now.
It was suggested that every non-military elected high official in the country has achieved a level of moral evolution that enables them to recognize that war is simply - and always - unnecessary slaughter of innocents by us. Once my eyes stopped rolling around in my head, I read further where the poster then implies that the "military industrial complex" is continually foaming at the mouth to lead us into war at the slightest provocation. I'd offer that in addition to feasting on creatively edited propaganda films, this person has confused real life with far too many Hollywood movies. No one debates that war - and the sometimes unavoidable civilian toll - can produce horrible results. (I resent wasting time responding to such extraordinarily trite observations, and this poster has offered so many.)
An important point to reiterate is one that several people have now touched on: when these officials who claim to be so morally offended by the idea of any war, are faced with events, such as 9/11, that call for action or invasion, they shirk their shared responsibility for the decisions they sign off on by pretending they've had their arms twisted by the military. The unfortunate truth is that there are times when our survival is so threatened that the bullies must be pushed back and/or kept in check.
It's laughably easy to sit behind a desk somewhere and exercise your American birthright to badmouth soldiers. It takes a few more brain cells to remember that the comfortable, freethinking society we enjoy in this country was forged on the backs of fighters who stood up and did the inconceivably difficult work for the rest of us, often having their lives stolen from them in the process.
Katarina
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Permalink Reply by marion tucker on
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You say to the Keyboard 'warrior' "Enjoy and embrace your freedom of speech, but don't forget who makes it possible for you."
I can't post my thoughts on this troll, who obviously thinks himself so high above us ordinary folk, who perceives himself so ultimately more 'civilized' - if I wrote what I think about the ravings of this slug - such ravings do not deserve direct response or discussion - my comments would be banned.
To respond or engage in discussion with such a pitiful mindset serves nothing but giving him credence in his own warped existance. Like my Grampa told me: "Don't get into a pis*ng contest with a skunk."
To me, this troll is a prime example of one who DOES NOT deserve the freedom on free speach given to him by those who so dearly sacrified for it. He is one who will never get the reality of WAR - that has, for example, allowed him to be able to rant against REAL heroes - in English. Were we to follow his lead, we would have been speaking German since the late 40's. But I don't expect he'll ever get that any more than he'll get that the cowardly enemy in Afghanistan who hides behind and deleiberately uses the innocents as cover, are the one responsible for their deaths...a cowardly enemy who wears nothing to distinquish himself from the general poplulation...hiding behind the skirts of the women and children.
I wonder why you such a troll the space for his vitriol on this site - most especially on this day. Forums usually cull out such trolls whose only purpose is to trash it. Our troops do not deserve having to see this filth.
I hope the moderator will consider taking down his diatribe and banning him as a poster. He has no place here.
Elliott Alcantara said:Eric
Are there many other causes worth putting our money and time and effort into other than war? Absolutely.
This book, and the movie are not a "glamorization" as you put it but a REALITY that all of us there ACTUALLY lived. You can be a moral hero behind your keyboard all you want if that makes you sleep well at night or able to look at yourself in the mirror, but we did what we did which was what was necessary at the time. How many times have you been tested like this? ID like to see how long you stay on your moral high ground over all of us when the bullets start crashing around you and taking your friends from you. It wasn't about chest thumping bravado and machismo, it was about love for one another and a willingness to fight against God himself if need be to make sure that all of our buddies made it home alright. The fact that it was an insane adrenaline high was just a bonus but at the end of te day we were just doing any and all we could to make sure our brothers to our left and right could go home and live whatever kind of life they wanted with whomever they wanted to live it with. Just remember, the only reason your able to run around the Internet posting what you consider to be an educated and informed opinion is because men like us ensure that no one will take that from you. If you don't like that, move somewhere else where people all believe in peace and pacifism and that the horrors of war and the sacraficesbof the men that fight in them are unnecessary and tell me how long it is before your speaking a language and saluting a flag of a country that preys on the weak. Enjoy and embrace your freedom of speech, but don't forget who makes it possible for you.
Your BFF
Al
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Permalink Reply by Karen on
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From my perspective the only "glamorizing" done is the simply Sebastian's accurate reflection of the dazzling glory of what it is to be a young, healthy, beautiful American male facing and performing the job they have signed up to do. Of course it's glamorous. Their blood will never run hotter, their vision will never be better, their desires will never be stronger, and their fear of death will never be less than it is at this stage. These are THE soldiers. These men are who we need with their terrible beauty and potential to destroy and protect. If they can survive what we ask of them, then we need to teach them how to be mere citizens again so that they can live a life, a normal life, which is so much less than what they experienced at battle, and yet has it's own small glories and triumphs. We mere citizens must stand in awe of their committment.
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Permalink Reply by marion tucker on
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AMEN
Samuel Vaughan Wilson III said:Eric.
Wow .... I am absolutely amazed at your conviction. My rebuff is Simple.
I was 34 when I went to Afghanistan (OEF VI 2005-2006).... I had a degree from Hampden-Sydney College (BA in History) and I was a Certified National Registry -Paramedic and had worked in the EMS Field since 1996. I left a $54K a year job where I only worked four nights a week. So I like many of my other sky soldiers I had a function and was not only coping but I was cleaning up the mess left in the streets across social-economic lines. In my platoon the average age was 21 the majority of lower enlisted had at least a year or two of college. So the depiction of barbaric knuckle dragging low life's is an utter farce. The majority of the guys in the army are middle class. Or in my case lower upper class. Co-erced I doubt it. I was, but it is different I am third generation paratrooper, I am the son of a field grade special forces officer and the grandson of a very highly decorated Lt. General who is a legend in the ranger community and intelligence community. So I had a lot to live up too. In my family the laconic quip was prized and held has absolute truth... "come back with your shield or on it". I am a professional soldier with 7 years of total active service, I am a NCO and I am a paratrooper .
Manufactured war.... you need to read Walid Phares "Future Jihad" and Amed Rashid's "Taliban" for starters. Your very statements are exactly the very qualities the islamic extremist view as decadent and weak, thus the train wreck of events that lead up to the present conflict. And sir it started way before the 9/11 events ... try 1982.
If you think war is glamorized.... in the book which I just read because someone mistaking thought I was in the book. Which I am not. If anything the book would discourage the weak hearted and materialistic.... which in my opinion is what this country, my beloved home has become.
Your sarcasm and irony is noted.... enjoy your free speech and so-called enlightened life. It was paid for with a treasure you are not worthy of.
My final quip in summary to you is this:
" If you can read this thank a teacher, Because you are reading it in english thank a paratrooper"
Also
" low into the valley of shadow I go .... I shall fear no evil ... for I am the meanest SOB in the valley" -SF prayer
SGT "DOC" WILSON
OEF VI Vet.
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Permalink Reply by Heath Roberts on
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Very nice. A history man and a paramedic. You can come ride shotgun in my box (or bus as yankees call it) any day of the week
Samuel Vaughan Wilson III said:Eric.
Wow .... I am absolutely amazed at your conviction. My rebuff is Simple.
I was 34 when I went to Afghanistan (OEF VI 2005-2006).... I had a degree from Hampden-Sydney College (BA in History) and I was a Certified National Registry -Paramedic and had worked in the EMS Field since 1996. I left a $54K a year job where I only worked four nights a week. So I like many of my other sky soldiers I had a function and was not only coping but I was cleaning up the mess left in the streets across social-economic lines. In my platoon the average age was 21 the majority of lower enlisted had at least a year or two of college. So the depiction of barbaric knuckle dragging low life's is an utter farce. The majority of the guys in the army are middle class. Or in my case lower upper class. Co-erced I doubt it. I was, but it is different I am third generation paratrooper, I am the son of a field grade special forces officer and the grandson of a very highly decorated Lt. General who is a legend in the ranger community and intelligence community. So I had a lot to live up too. In my family the laconic quip was prized and held has absolute truth... "come back with your shield or on it". I am a professional soldier with 7 years of total active service, I am a NCO and I am a paratrooper .
Manufactured war.... you need to read Walid Phares "Future Jihad" and Amed Rashid's "Taliban" for starters. Your very statements are exactly the very qualities the islamic extremist view as decadent and weak, thus the train wreck of events that lead up to the present conflict. And sir it started way before the 9/11 events ... try 1982.
If you think war is glamorized.... in the book which I just read because someone mistaking thought I was in the book. Which I am not. If anything the book would discourage the weak hearted and materialistic.... which in my opinion is what this country, my beloved home has become.
Your sarcasm and irony is noted.... enjoy your free speech and so-called enlightened life. It was paid for with a treasure you are not worthy of.
My final quip in summary to you is this:
" If you can read this thank a teacher, Because you are reading it in english thank a paratrooper"
Also
" low into the valley of shadow I go .... I shall fear no evil ... for I am the meanest SOB in the valley" -SF prayer
SGT "DOC" WILSON
OEF VI Vet.
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Permalink Reply by John Schaaf on -
Wow, well put.
The part about '...their fear of deather will never be less..." I'm a little iffy about, though. I was a soldier in Bosnia when we stuck our hand into that mess, and I can definitely say that I ignored my fear of death quite well, but it was still high nonetheless. :)
Great reply, though. Very good to read.
Karen said:From my perspective the only "glamorizing" done is the simply Sebastian's accurate reflection of the dazzling glory of what it is to be a young, healthy, beautiful American male facing and performing the job they have signed up to do. Of course it's glamorous. Their blood will never run hotter, their vision will never be better, their desires will never be stronger, and their fear of death will never be less than it is at this stage. These are THE soldiers. These men are who we need with their terrible beauty and potential to destroy and protect. If they can survive what we ask of them, then we need to teach them how to be mere citizens again so that they can live a life, a normal life, which is so much less than what they experienced at battle, and yet has it's own small glories and triumphs. We mere citizens must stand in awe of their committment.
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Permalink Reply by Gregg on -
Hi Eric, how are you today? I can see from your above comments you should go see the Dr in Freetown, Sierra Leone. He is a good shrink or at least as good as you need. I resent all that you said above and it shows you have missed the whole point of the book and the interviews. Furthermore it shows you have no idea of what soldiers do and why they do it. Any soldier in the American army anywhere has more potential than you do and I have no idea of what you do. If you think Afghanistan is a farce then tell me what the fuck you consider a real "war" to be. Even if you knew what a real war is, you would not go near it and would watch from the sidelines of Canada or some such place.
" It seems to me like it's being carried out by so-called "soldiers" who have no hope in life and are thus coerced into aggression and shooting guns because they don't know any other way to function and cope in society.". I can imagine you as one of those kind of people that spit on us and called us baby killers in Vietnam and have never taken a stand in your life on anything that matters outside of the bubble world you live in. I can even imagine that you voted for Obama as well and we all can see where that is going and it is the place all of you sorry fuckers love. Sebastian would not have to give what money he makes to help with the federal deficit if this glourious government we have now has not put us so far in debt we cannot see the end of it anytime in this lifetime or the next.
I notice you are not saying anything about the Taliban or Al Quidea being good guys and wasting money and time on piss tubes and testerone fueled farce and killing americans. But then again you seem to be the type that does not matter that americans are being killed there and elsewhere so you can sit back in comfort and tell people what a waste of time and money wars are. It is those same wars, over the last couple hundred years that lets you say the shit you do and gives you the right you do. Why not go to China and run your mouth and see what happens?
One more thought on your brilliant statement above. Even if Sebastian wanted to donate his money for the book and movies to help bail out what obama has thrown us into, just how much do you think it would help? So why even say anything about that? Maybe you are pissed as he makes a touch more money than you do and can do things you can never do as you are a coward and will never go to war and if by some stange quirk of fate you did end up in a war you would not doubt be a REMF. (Rear Echelon(?) Mother Fucker) as we said in Vietnam.
I have known Sebastian over 11 years now and he has more balls and intergity in one finger than you apparently have in your whole body. He does what he does so people can see what war is like and to let all of you brain dead fucks that is more than a video game or movie. He not only talks the talk but he can walk the walk as well. He does things I will not do these days and i have been in Vietnam and some little war in Sierra Leone and even helped with some poor Cubans that wanted to go home way back when. I have seen many people in war and have seen the best and the worst and if Sebastion were to ever be a soldier he would be a great one and one that would not talk about the things he does but just do them.
Eric, did you that movie, "GI Jane" another testerone fueled movie about war. Do you rremember what Demi Moore told the man that beat the hell out of her? Well if not than let me refresh your memory. She told him to "suck my dick" and that can aptly apply to what i will say to you. You know nothing about war or life and all you want to do is take the side of our enemies and that makes you a traitor to the US. Why dont you pack your bags and go where no one fights wars and live your small puny life in all its glory.
I can imagine your reply and of course you will toss in George Bush and other things but I do not care. As far as I can see from your comments above you do not appreciate anything American have died for and that includes any of the wars in our history. Maybe you should go live in Africa and do something positive for a change and see how life is and not how you want it to be.
I was just looking over your reply to others and this one is good. Is "corageous" a new type of courage that justifies killing innocent people in their home country. Again it is obvious you have not been in combat. Whenever someone is shooting at me he/she is no longer "innocent" and that applies to anyone, man, woman or child. Do you know any history of Japan and the Samaurai? If a 16 year old kid took a sword and tried to hurt a samaurai, he was considered a man and was killed like a man. Whenever someone takes a weapon they have joined the dance and when you dance you have to pay the piper. Some of the worse killers and murderers in the Sierra Leone war were the child soldiers. they would kill you without a qualm and if you gave them half a chance you had a serious problem on yoru hands. the same way in Vietnam. The US may be bad as you would like to think but as far as i know we do not use child soldiers or hide in mosques and behind civilians when we fight a war. And that is a problem with the US military as they cannot win with all the restrictions we have to work with. the other guys fight to win no matter what and we want to fight with rules and regulations that tie our hands. But that sounds like something you like, americans that can be killed by the fine enemy soldiers on the other side of the line.
Not much more i can say and to all the people tha do not like my language, with the exception of Eric, excuse it if you will. I say what i mean and it does cause me problems at times but that is life. I get fed up with people like Eric that cannot see what is going on in the world and that we have to fight wars at times and if we do not do it then the world is in trouble as we seem to be the leader, at least for a bit longer or until China calls in its payments.
have a good weekend to all out there and even you Eric. As we say down South, "opinions are like assholes and we all have one and some have a bigger one than others."
I missed the movie but i will see it one day. I wish Sebastian all the best and I really hope he stays home more and lets other people do this business now.
The best to all and have a good weekend
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Permalink Reply by Patricia on -
Hello Eric,
you stated "being carried out by so-called "soldiers" who have no hope in life and are thus coerced into aggression and shooting guns because they don't know any other way to function and cope in society"
Well, let me tell you about one soldier who was flown into this area just this morning (STATES TIME).
My son, a college graduate, who has no debt, has no issues with the lawpast or present, has two loving supportive parents, many friends and family who care very deeply for him. He is well adjusted, highly intelligent, committed and generally a really great guy that everyone enjoys being around. Why did he join and specifically ensure he joined Battle Company in the 2nd Platoon 173rd Airborne Brigade? Only he can tell you this, but what I can share is....ever since he was old enough to communicate all he ever wanted to be was a soldier. He did not join to go out and play war games or to stand for some "manufactured conflict", rather he felt he could make a difference in the lives of others.
This Eric means you too.
My son, my only son and only child, choose to place himself in danger for reasons only he can understand. I support him, I support all the men and women in the service, past, present and future. They lay their lives down to keep our freedom, the freedom you use to speak your mind on this very forum. Of that I am proud!
So continue to place judgement Eric, as it is your right. Just because you find something horrific and beyond your highly evolved sense of justice does not mean that you are correct. It only means you have the right to speak your opinion and you know what they say about opinions.
Proud Parent of a Soldier!
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Permalink Reply by Gregg on
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;hi guys and gals, this is Gregg again and i would like to say that all of you have figured out Erica and what he stands for, nothing but himself and his delusional ideas. I went to the movie lst night in Silver Springs and I will be commenting on that later today. I spoke to Sebastian and the Captain you will see in the movie. He is a fine gentleman and a credit to the Sky soldiers, past, as in my case,and present as in the modern day situtation. He and men like him are keeping the glory of the 173rd alive and well and I am proud of him and the others even though Eric will see it as glamorizing the war--again. I will say this thouhg. the AFI theater holds 400 seats and there was not a seat empty . I remember two standing ovations to Sebastian and the soldiers there from the company in the movie. Sorry Eric but we appreicate out soldiers and heros and what they do so you can sit around on your fat ass and critize and cut down everything good and nobel about the military. Be back later in the evening, good people
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Permalink Reply by Bill Day on -
I hold no brief for Eric, since I think his assessment of Sebastian, the book, the film, and soldiers is incorrect, and his language intemperate and insulting. At the risk of making myself equally unpopular, however, I think he does raise one point we should perhaps all be thinking about, namely, what if we are making a mistake? I know many of you have lived more deeply, read more deeply, thought more deeply about the War in Afghanistan than I have. I do not question the nobility and worth of you, your fathers, sons, brothers who have chosen military service. Sebastian's book does a wonderful job of showing their cohesion, brotherhood, courage, and self-sacrifice. It creates new insights into how one survives what otherwise would be unsurvivable. If our plans are mistaken, our strategy flawed, or our leaders incapable of leading, it does not diminish an iota the worth of our men in uniform. At the same time, the worth of our soldiers is no guarantee of the correctness of our strategy or the justness of our cause. As we reflect on those we have sent for our own safety into harm's way, where they will both suffer much and inflict much suffering, I think it behooves us to at least ask ourselves whether we are doing the right thing. I do not have an easy answer, despite my grave misgivings, and even less so since reading Sebastian's book. But I think we should all reflect, for the sake of ourselves and others.
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