So tired of this glamorization

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Permalink Reply by mouse on June 27, 2010 at 4:12am

I agree, Bill, and I feel badly that there's somehow an aura of needing to verbally genuflect on this forum when offering an alternate opinion. I know you've been wanting to discuss this for some time now.

It's actually startlingly evident from the McChrystal Rolling Stone interview that the higher-ups weren't/aren't at all convinced we should be in Afghanistan either. It does, quite sadly, seem to be a losing proposition, considering the multiple variables working against us. Additionally, I constantly hear the terms Al Qaida and Taliban being used interchangeably, showcasing the ignorance of the general public on the effort and what is actually happening in the region.

This war is quite different from Iraq, which is its own mess. But then, these affairs are never easy, effortless, or quick. By the military's estimation, Iraq was only going to last two weeks, what with "Shock and Awe". I have some pretty complex feelings about Iraq that I won't go into at this time, but I have been wondering how things are currently going there, as I never hear a thing on the news about it anymore.

But I digress. Your question, But what if we are making a mistake? cannot be invalidated and should be considered. I understand clearly, as I hope the other readers here will too, that your statement and desire to simply discuss this topic in no way whatsoever translates to a lack of support for our heroes in service.

I am certainly no expert on these matters, which is why I like to read discussion, get book recommendations, and hear different points of view that stay focused and on topic. I look forward to just that.

Thanks, Bill!
Katarina

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Permalink Reply by Gregg on June 27, 2010 at 7:53am

hi Bill, Gregg here and i wish i had the grasp of the english language that you do. No one is unpopular by stating their opinion of the war and that is the american way. and that is what soldiers fight for among other things. and you may be right that maybe we should think about are we right to be in the war in afghanistan or any way. however i think you miss the point and that is these soldiers job description does not say to question their superiors motives and if they did would they make the right decisions needed. I know nothing about the reason for war but i know there are far more things to think about other than just the fighting aspect of it. the movie was about the men fighting and their spirit in doing so and not the REASONS for the war. i enjoyed your comments and keep up the good work and never feel bad about stating your opinions and being "politically correct" as my opinion of that is that is sucks big time...c ya

Bill Day said:

I hold no brief for Eric, since I think his assessment of Sebastian, the book, the film, and soldiers is incorrect, and his language intemperate and insulting. At the risk of making myself equally unpopular, however, I think he does raise one point we should perhaps all be thinking about, namely, what if we are making a mistake? I know many of you have lived more deeply, read more deeply, thought more deeply about the War in Afghanistan than I have. I do not question the nobility and worth of you, your fathers, sons, brothers who have chosen military service. Sebastian's book does a wonderful job of showing their cohesion, brotherhood, courage, and self-sacrifice. It creates new insights into how one survives what otherwise would be unsurvivable. If our plans are mistaken, our strategy flawed, or our leaders incapable of leading, it does not diminish an iota the worth of our men in uniform. At the same time, the worth of our soldiers is no guarantee of the correctness of our strategy or the justness of our cause. As we reflect on those we have sent for our own safety into harm's way, where they will both suffer much and inflict much suffering, I think it behooves us to at least ask ourselves whether we are doing the right thing. I do not have an easy answer, despite my grave misgivings, and even less so since reading Sebastian's book. But I think we should all reflect, for the sake of ourselves and others.

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Permalink Reply by Gregg on June 27, 2010 at 8:00am

hey eric one last question for you. you say "so-called "soldiers" who have no hope in life and are thus coerced into aggression and shooting guns because they don't know any other way to function and cope in society". Does this include the average soldiers or what? are you saying the Officers involved such as the Lt, Captains, Majors , Lt. Colonels, Colonels and Generals all have no hope in life? I do not know what planet you are on but here on planet Earth they are some of the best schooled people in the country and they go onto corporate jobs and so one. so if you are just talking about the average "grunt" say so. even then most of us go onto bigger and better things in life after wwe do our service to a country that has given us all we want if we want to work for it. and working for it can involve being a soldier. sorry you disagree. well, no i am not sorry. it is your right to disagree thanks to the soldiers you think so little of.

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Permalink Reply by mouse on June 27, 2010 at 8:14am

I gotta agree on the PC thing, Gregg. It's out of control, in my opinion. It's yet one more example of morally policing the entire country/world because a handful of jackasses can't seem to muster a thimble of respect for their fellow man. I also think political correctness has become a calculated distraction in terms of addressing the actual issues at hand.

Of course, my mother says that I had my tact surgically removed at birth. LOL - I'm an above-board, cards on the table, mince no words, and take-no-prisoners kinda girl. I'm also a sweet little Southern belle, but if you try to patronize, intimidate, or over-polite me I'll whip out the four-letter words in a New York minute, if purely for my own entertainment.

Katarina
I also agree Bill is an excellent writer!

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Permalink Reply by Gregg on June 27, 2010 at 8:26am

Hi Katrina, nice to hear from you. glad to hear you are a Southern Belle with a sense of honor as all Southern Gentleman and Ladies had/have. I have always had a habit of putting my foot in my mouth but i have acquired a taste for shoe leather it seems.:) Take care and keep up the good critiques and maybe one day a few others we know will learn some honor and courage.


mouse said:

I gotta agree on the PC thing, Gregg. It's out of control, in my opinion. It's yet one more example of morally policing the entire country/world because a handful of jackasses can't seem to muster a thimble of respect for their fellow man. I also think political correctness has become a calculated distraction in terms of addressing the actual issues at hand.

Of course, my mother says that I had my tact surgically removed at birth. LOL - I'm an above-board, cards on the table, mince no words, and take-no-prisoners kinda girl. I'm also a sweet little Southern belle, but if you try to patronize, intimidate, or over-polite me I'll whip out the four-letter words in a New York minute, if purely for my own entertainment.

Katarina
I also agree Bill is an excellent writer!

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Permalink Reply by Bill Day on June 27, 2010 at 12:19pm

Gregg, Katarina, thank you for your generosity of spirit and many kind words. As Gregg said, that is the American Way. I think that one of the great things about "War" is that whatever one's view of the conflict, one cannot help but come away with greater admiration for the troops. I am really hoping to get a chance to see Restrepo soon.

Gregg, I agree with you that soldiers are required to follow orders and execute their mission, in all but the most extraordinary circumstances. (It is my understanding that the American military recognizes that there is such a thing as orders that are illegal.) I also agree that the point of "War" and presumably Restrepo is not a wider discussion of the purposes of the war. But I also think that as citizens of a great democracy, we have a different duty. First we have a heavy responsibility to those we send to war on our behalf. Personally, my biggest question about how well we meet that responsibility has not to do with how well we support the troops in combat, but how well we care for our veterans in the long years after they come home. Mind you, a great many vets need no help from me, thank you very much. But there are others. Second, however difficult the challenge, we as citizens are supposedly the decision-makers in this country. In light of all the powerful groups that influence Washington, it may seem futile or quixotic sometimes to take our responsibilities as citizen-decision-makers seriously. But I think we owe it to our troops and to ourselves, since the troops act in our name. When we unleash the awesome destructive power of the United States military, when we hazard the lives of our best young men and women, we should make those decisions consciously in full knowledge and responsibility. Even if the subject matter of "War" is not these decisions, I think the book is an important catalyst for thinking about the war in every respect.

So much for my brief note of thanks. Thanks again, guys, not just for the kind words but for helping me try to figure things out.

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Permalink Reply by mouse on June 27, 2010 at 12:53pm

I couldn't agree more, Bill. Beautifully put, and I'm glad we had the opportunity to talk about this in more detail. (And still do.)

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Permalink Reply by Gregg on June 27, 2010 at 4:37pm

Hi Bill and Katrina,thanks for the reply. I agree with you and my concern is that the governmenrt is fast to send us to fight a war, manufactured or not but they are not as quick to give us what we need to win it, both in backing us with moral support and the equipment needed. Look at how long it took Obama to get the troops to McCrystal and people wonder why he said what he did. but that is another story for another time. Sebasians movie is about how it feels to be a soldier and what they think about what they are doing. nothing more and there never was any politics tossed into the talks as best as i can tell from the movie. Sure a lot of us thought and wondered why it was important to do what we did and taking hills and mountains and valleys and walking away does not sound sensible. In Viet Nam we had horrendous battles on some of them like the one in the movie Hamburger Hill and the one the 173rd had called Hill 875 which with the battle of Dak To was the end of the 173rd as a fighting unit at the time. Of course we thought it may be a waste of time and effort but again it was not our place to make those calls. I guess if we wanted to make that kind of call we should have gone to college and became a senator or general and then we would have had a say in things--maybe. when we end up with the 11B2P classification( in this case i was a machinegunner and paratoop qualified) we know what to look for and go and do it. there are many ways to get out of the military but we chose to go and do what we thought was right. if we got killed what can you say? it is part of the job description to keep our country safe. soldiers and all other military personnel whine and complain all the time but we do the job. i have more to say on this but will save it for the crtique of the movie which was great. not quite enough violence for me as i am used to the cinema type war stories but for what is was trying to say it ws excellent. be back later to both of you. what i would like to say is this. One of the ladies said they should mnot let eric and his crap opinions stay on the site. No, that is wrong and that is exactly why americans fight wars so people like him and michael moore can say the things they do. we all have our constitutionla rights to say what we want( at least for the time being) and those rights are paid for in blood and heartbreak but that is the way it has to be. havea good weekend you two and all the rest reading this.

Bill Day said:

Gregg, Katarina, thank you for your generosity of spirit and many kind words. As Gregg said, that is the American Way. I think that one of the great things about "War" is that whatever one's view of the conflict, one cannot help but come away with greater admiration for the troops. I am really hoping to get a chance to see Restrepo soon.

Gregg, I agree with you that soldiers are required to follow orders and execute their mission, in all but the most extraordinary circumstances. (It is my understanding that the American military recognizes that there is such a thing as orders that are illegal.) I also agree that the point of "War" and presumably Restrepo is not a wider discussion of the purposes of the war. But I also think that as citizens of a great democracy, we have a different duty. First we have a heavy responsibility to those we send to war on our behalf. Personally, my biggest question about how well we meet that responsibility has not to do with how well we support the troops in combat, but how well we care for our veterans in the long years after they come home. Mind you, a great many vets need no help from me, thank you very much. But there are others. Second, however difficult the challenge, we as citizens are supposedly the decision-makers in this country. In light of all the powerful groups that influence Washington, it may seem futile or quixotic sometimes to take our responsibilities as citizen-decision-makers seriously. But I think we owe it to our troops and to ourselves, since the troops act in our name. When we unleash the awesome destructive power of the United States military, when we hazard the lives of our best young men and women, we should make those decisions consciously in full knowledge and responsibility. Even if the subject matter of "War" is not these decisions, I think the book is an important catalyst for thinking about the war in every respect.

So much for my brief note of thanks. Thanks again, guys, not just for the kind words but for helping me try to figure things out.

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