So tired of this glamorization

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Eric on May 28, 2010 at 2:26pm

Lindsey, Is "corageous" a new type of courage that justifies killing innocent people in their home country? How is that "defending his country?" At least your family member had the option of volunteering for this fiasco. These people (http://rethinkafghanistan.com/cc_trailer.php) did not. But, I guess, they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Now families on both sides are devastated. So, let's throw more money and bodies into this government-sponsored campaign of violence - that will solve the problem. It worked for the Soviets, right?

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Permalink Reply by mouse on May 28, 2010 at 4:31pm

Eric,

I appreciate your point of view and it was one I shared many years ago. However, as I've educated myself more on the various aspects of the military (the training, the psychology, the sociology, the conflicts), I've felt my perspective shift to embrace a broader perspective. Given that expanded awareness, I feel compelled to speak to your points.

When I was a kid I used to wonder why we didn't just put the two (or more) arguing world leaders in a boxing ring and let them duke it out, rather than using largely politically uninvolved second parties to carry out their battle of egos. I still think that's a good idea. Settling differences with words would be the best-case scenario, and I don't believe there’s anyone who doesn’t agree with that. One day, perhaps, we'll have evolved enough to be able to consistently rely on verbal mediation. That day is not today, unfortunately.

Sebastian is perfectly capable of expressing his own views on this and doesn't require defending; however, I must say that he certainly wasn't responsible for labeling Afghanistan a war. Additionally, physicality in its extremes is, in and of itself, testosterone-fueled ("macho", sure), adrenaline-fueled, a chemical shake coded into our bodies for the purposes of survival. Soldiers aren't coerced into aggression. They volunteer to receive training on how to best protect our country, its allies, and other unprovoked nations and peoples and keep foreign and domestic enemies from murdering, beheading, bombing, assassinating, infiltrating, propagandizing, enslaving, torturing, and creating an atmosphere of terror. And you better believe training for those situations requires aggressiveness.

Many people in the world today are without direction or hope that their personal situations will improve. They don’t all join military factions. Hopelessness is not a prerequisite for military service. On the contrary, it is the hope for a better life that seems to compel young men and women to seek out the structure and discipline this training provides; and most will tell you that their personal situations, morals, and self-confidence were all improved due to their involvement with the military, regardless of whether or not they become career soldiers or officers. And yes, war requires training. And yes, war preparedness requires brute force, tactical knowledge, and – believe it or not – utterly civilized diplomacy. In war zones, many individual military units meet with locals and elders on a regular basis to attempt to forge trusting, positive relationships. Schools are built, infrastructure is developed from nothing, or enhanced. Girls are allowed to be educated. Mines and bombs are diffused for the safety of all. Patrols protect and serve, while playing with Afghani children and dispensing candy and toys.

I wince at your question about whether or not Sebastian will be comforted by “cheers” for his speaking engagement. I sincerely hope that he and Tim do feel proud of their accomplishments in documenting the lives of these men. I would also humbly suggest, on their behalf, that the only true cheer they have taken from this experience are the deep friendships they have made and the hope that the description of war they share will give people insights they did not previously possess. From that point forward, the degree of rumination, of impact, of respect or loathing is up to the individual.

Your requests for financial compensation as a taxpayer are being laid at the feet of the wrong person. Your state and federal representatives are responsible for allocating taxpayer dollars to support foreign conflicts; and, to be perfectly honest, you may not know it but you probably voted for a few of them. The assertion that journalism that you find personally offensive does not deserve monetary compensation is ridiculous. It is a job, and, in fact, a noble one.

I would like to ask you – respectfully, but pointedly - if you have read the book you’re criticizing, because I do find it difficult to believe that you have. No glamorization of anything exists within its pages, believe me. I can’t imagine any experience further from the concept.


I guess I’ve said my peace, pun intended.
Katarina

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Permalink Reply by Eric on May 28, 2010 at 5:52pm

mouse, Lots of holes in reasoning here (imho). I think the main issue is that most people outside of the military, Congress, and the Executive branch have indeed evolved to the point where they clearly recognize that sacrificing the lives of innocent people is not the answer. Unfortunately, the military industrial complex doesn't think like that. To them, it's just a numbers game. But as a human being with even the most minute amount of awareness, do you not look at these lists (http://icasualties.org/OEF/Fatalities.aspx / http://icasualties.org/Iraq/Fatalities.aspx / http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/) and ask, "When will we wake up?"

If you watch Sebastian's trailer for Restrepo, you can clearly see him hyping the testosterone-fueled, kick-ass stereotypes to attract interest - so sad:

1. [image: badly wounded or dead Afghani child] US Soldier: "We just say a prayer and move on..."
2. US Soldier: "You can't get a better high, it's like crack... once you get shot at, you really can't come down, you can't top that."
3. Closing image: US Soldier who says he can't wait to get home to make love to his wife (but, he doesn't have the ability to communicate that in words, so he just grunts like he's having sex).

I've seen enough, no thanks. Good luck to SJ though. Maybe he'll get a feature film out of it.

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Permalink Reply by Eric on May 28, 2010 at 5:58pm

"physicality in its extremes is, in and of itself, testosterone-fueled ("macho", sure), adrenaline-fueled, a chemical shake coded into our bodies for the purposes of survivall" - Really? What if our leadership & military were all female? Would we be in the same situation? I long for that day. In the meantime, I have to wait while the Pentagon "studies" the effects of repealing Don't Ask, Don't Tell. How much will that cost? Are you kidding me?

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Permalink Reply by mouse on May 28, 2010 at 6:34pm

Hi Eric,

Thanks for your reply. I just wanted to say a couple of additional things.

I agree wholeheartedly that the casualty list is devastating and horrific. I fervently wish there were no wars and that we could all - all of us, the world over - feel safe in our beds at night, no anxieties, no nightmares, just deep, contented sleep. The fact is that there are very bad people on the planet who don't want those things for us. What are we to do? That's the question every person in power has asked him/herself since the human race began. The best answer we've come up with so far is that we first try to reasonably talk things out, and when it's clear our adversaries are insane enough to simply crave American death, we defend ourselves. It's ugly, but there it is. I am not being flippant when I say that if you know another way to contend with these desperate situations, please call or write every elected official in the land and pass on your ideas.

My final point is on the subject of Restrepo, in the context you describe it. I could be wrong here, but my impression is that Sebastian and Tim never set out to make any sort of political statement with this project. The book is devoid of politics. In fact, the only mention of it at all is a reference that the men in battle find it (at least) secondary to the task at hand. That may seem odd, but you must consider the kind of focus it takes simply to stay alive in such circumstances. In every job across the world there are aspects of each position with which certain groups are tasked. As the chain of command rises, the responsibility is expanded and the focus broadened; however, at the real "worker" level (versus, say Management), the focus is generally much narrower, and this applies to soldiers in the field as well.

I have not seen the documentary yet, but my take is that the scenes you pointed out from the trailer are not meant to be political. I believe the book, and perhaps the documentary, to be character studies. The trailer scenes are people, men, fallible human beings just talking, confiding, bullshitting, being grandiose, comedic, crass: whatever they decide the moment requires of them. I don't believe any of it is the Last Word, a definitive and emphatic proclamation of what war or the soldier experience is. It's just a specific group of guys, with their specific ties to one another, in a particular location with particular problems to solve.

I know we're going to just agree to disagree, and I'm not attempting to change your mind. I wouldn't do that. I would, however, recommend the book to you if you had any interest at all, even from a sociological standpoint. It really is incredibly interesting, and for most of us it's a peek into a strange and wholly unfamiliar window. I believe that's worth a lot in terms of stretching our intellectual and emotional muscles.


Thanks for listening,
Katarina

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Permalink Reply by mouse on May 28, 2010 at 7:02pm

Okay, you quoted my comment on physicality and then used that to segue into a question that had nothing to do with physicality. Let's debate sensibly.

It has been proven that women can be equally as violent as men, often more so in domestic situations. Women in power have their strengths, agendas, failings, baggage - just like men - and are equally equipped to take us to war. You used the word "glamorization" in your post heading, and there you go: women shouldn't be glamorized. We fuck up too.

And listen, you keep going on with all this rhetoric about what you think I believe ought to be happening in the world. I think I've been pretty clear. Dying bad, politicians largely untrustworthy, violence scary. Okay? Again, debate fairly. If you decide to come into a forum where you know for certain you're in the minority, you can’t come in guns blazing (irony, anyone?), accusations flying, and expect to have your opinions taken seriously.

I surrender the floor to anyone else who might want to speak to this.


Katarina

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Permalink Reply by Eric on May 28, 2010 at 7:28pm

"Schools are built, infrastructure is developed from nothing, or enhanced. Girls are allowed to be educated..."

Reality check: http://rethinkafghanistan.com/blog/2009/07/rethink-afghanistan-part...

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Permalink Reply by Nathan W. on May 28, 2010 at 10:22pm

Wow, you posted an argumentative post on a website...you're quite the little hero.

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Permalink Reply by Clare Rosalind Harrison on May 28, 2010 at 11:15pm

Hi Mouse..how are you? hope your weekend will be great....
I just wanted to say "ditto" on your comment to Eric....He is definitely persecuting the wrong person...I believe if someone wants to debate a theory>>they should at least examine the facts...Right now Eric is blowing steam out of a plugged pipe hole..Winter is over...Summer has arrived...Credit where it is due...
From what I have observed regarding Sebastian..he has a big, warm heart...opened with compassion for all..when you think his dearest friend Massoud was blown apart along with his family by suicide bombers...someone who was close to Sebastian for years>>How can this mentally incarcerated dude make careless,degrading comments about such a wholesouled person as Sebastian..who relates facts...not fantasy mind plays.....I think a day in the combat zone might change this person's attitude as he seems to be someone who rides off the height of someone else's glory....be certain what lies on the ground beneath Eric as gravity eventually collapses hot air balloons and landing may be uncomfortable...So long all>>>

mouse said:

Eric,

I appreciate your point of view and it was one I shared many years ago. However, as I've educated myself more on the various aspects of the military (the training, the psychology, the sociology, the conflicts), I've felt my perspective shift to embrace a broader perspective. Given that expanded awareness, I feel compelled to speak to your points.

When I was a kid I used to wonder why we didn't just put the two (or more) arguing world leaders in a boxing ring and let them duke it out, rather than using largely politically uninvolved second parties to carry out their battle of egos. I still think that's a good idea. Settling differences with words would be the best-case scenario, and I don't believe there’s anyone who doesn’t agree with that. One day, perhaps, we'll have evolved enough to be able to consistently rely on verbal mediation. That day is not today, unfortunately.

Sebastian is perfectly capable of expressing his own views on this and doesn't require defending; however, I must say that he certainly wasn't responsible for labeling Afghanistan a war. Additionally, physicality in its extremes is, in and of itself, testosterone-fueled ("macho", sure), adrenaline-fueled, a chemical shake coded into our bodies for the purposes of survival. Soldiers aren't coerced into aggression. They volunteer to receive training on how to best protect our country, its allies, and other unprovoked nations and peoples and keep foreign and domestic enemies from murdering, beheading, bombing, assassinating, infiltrating, propagandizing, enslaving, torturing, and creating an atmosphere of terror. And you better believe training for those situations requires aggressiveness.

Many people in the world today are without direction or hope that their personal situations will improve. They don’t all join military factions. Hopelessness is not a prerequisite for military service. On the contrary, it is the hope for a better life that seems to compel young men and women to seek out the structure and discipline this training provides; and most will tell you that their personal situations, morals, and self-confidence were all improved due to their involvement with the military, regardless of whether or not they become career soldiers or officers. And yes, war requires training. And yes, war preparedness requires brute force, tactical knowledge, and – believe it or not – utterly civilized diplomacy. In war zones, many individual military units meet with locals and elders on a regular basis to attempt to forge trusting, positive relationships. Schools are built, infrastructure is developed from nothing, or enhanced. Girls are allowed to be educated. Mines and bombs are diffused for the safety of all. Patrols protect and serve, while playing with Afghani children and dispensing candy and toys.

I wince at your question about whether or not Sebastian will be comforted by “cheers” for his speaking engagement. I sincerely hope that he and Tim do feel proud of their accomplishments in documenting the lives of these men. I would also humbly suggest, on their behalf, that the only true cheer they have taken from this experience are the deep friendships they have made and the hope that the description of war they share will give people insights they did not previously possess. From that point forward, the degree of rumination, of impact, of respect or loathing is up to the individual.

Your requests for financial compensation as a taxpayer are being laid at the feet of the wrong person. Your state and federal representatives are responsible for allocating taxpayer dollars to support foreign conflicts; and, to be perfectly honest, you may not know it but you probably voted for a few of them. The assertion that journalism that you find personally offensive does not deserve monetary compensation is ridiculous. It is a job, and, in fact, a noble one.

I would like to ask you – respectfully, but pointedly - if you have read the book you’re criticizing, because I do find it difficult to believe that you have. No glamorization of anything exists within its pages, believe me. I can’t imagine any experience further from the concept.


I guess I’ve said my peace, pun intended.
Katarina

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Permalink Reply by Clare Rosalind Harrison on May 29, 2010 at 12:39am

I love your name Katarina....The Taming of the Shew!!>>>how adapt for such a time as this..You have nothing to feel guilty about...this Eric appears to have a really hurtful agenda as you say..towards Sebastian..and on his own site none the less..what audacity and presumptuousness...NSW>>called him quite the little argumentative hero>>>and that is what remains>>much ado about nothing>>>so rest yourself...thank you for your kind thoughts...for becoming my friend...so long for now...hugs Clare

mouse said:

Hi Clare,

I'm glad you posted! Quite unfortunately, Lindsey, who wrote the initial response, deleted her post and may have even left the forum, as I can't find her name among the members now.

Well, as you can see I tried to be as fair to Eric as I could be. I feel guilty, to tell the truth, for listening as long as I did. I don't want to continue being civil too long to someone who evidently has a hurtful agenda here; I have been concerned about it being interpreted as any sort of approval or endorsement of his views.

Offering an alternate viewpoint makes things interesting, and it helps us hone and clarify our own opinions. I'm not threatened by opposing ideas because I know my own mind. However, honest debate for the purposes of mutual education and enlightenment is obviously not what's going on here - on Memorial Day Weekend of all times - and I believe this now qualifies as trolling.

I share your kind impressions of Sebastian. He does show himself to be an incredibly earnest and gracious person, which is another reason I found Eric's unfounded attempts at character assassination on Sebastian's own site so troubling and insulting.


Thanks again, Clare,
Katarina

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Permalink Reply by Elliott Alcantara on May 29, 2010 at 4:24am

Eric

Are there many other causes worth putting our money and time and effort into other than war? Absolutely.

This book, and the movie are not a "glamorization" as you put it but a REALITY that all of us there ACTUALLY lived. You can be a moral hero behind your keyboard all you want if that makes you sleep well at night or able to look at yourself in the mirror, but we did what we did which was what was necessary at the time. How many times have you been tested like this? ID like to see how long you stay on your moral high ground over all of us when the bullets start crashing around you and taking your friends from you. It wasn't about chest thumping bravado and machismo, it was about love for one another and a willingness to fight against God himself if need be to make sure that all of our buddies made it home alright. The fact that it was an insane adrenaline high was just a bonus but at the end of te day we were just doing any and all we could to make sure our brothers to our left and right could go home and live whatever kind of life they wanted with whomever they wanted to live it with. Just remember, the only reason your able to run around the Internet posting what you consider to be an educated and informed opinion is because men like us ensure that no one will take that from you. If you don't like that, move somewhere else where people all believe in peace and pacifism and that the horrors of war and the sacraficesbof the men that fight in them are unnecessary and tell me how long it is before your speaking a language and saluting a flag of a country that preys on the weak. Enjoy and embrace your freedom of speech, but don't forget who makes it possible for you.

Your BFF
Al

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Permalink Reply by John Schaaf on May 30, 2010 at 9:00am

Mouse and Alcantara - this Eric person is just trying to get a rise out of everybody.

It seems that his dream scenario would be to pull all troops out of these wars and settle things by diplomacy alone. Yeah, let's do that. Assuming Eric even lives in the U.S., let's see how he does when the individuals we're fighting make their way over here (and don't think for a minute that they wouldn't).

It is very necessary for us to be over there. Sometimes the best way to stop a charging snake really is a jab with a pitchfork.

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